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Welcome to this week’s episode, it’s a very special treat!
So, for this week’s episode, in the spirit of treating myself to a vacation and working as little as possible (thank you to the person who emailed me and said I deserve a break – it felt so great to receive that support), this week’s episode is my chat with Meg-John Barker from the very first Explore More Summit.
Meg-John is someone I have learned SO much from and I adore their curious, compassionate approach to mental health, gender, love, and relationship. If you haven’t checked out their awesome books, including one of my favorites “Rewriting the Rules”, you can learn more about them here.
In this interview, we talk about the ways we define love and how rigid it is, how we can find new ways to love and be in relationship, the romanticism and idea of The One that sets us up for a ton of distress, more expansive ways to approach happiness and love in our lives, self-criticism and intense emotions, and how we can begin healing and learning ways to navigate it all.
Also, that book I mentioned, “Turn This World Inside Out” by Nora Samaran is recently out by AK Press, and you can grab your copy here.
Follow Dawn on Instagram.
About Host Dawn Serra:
Dawn Serra is a therapeutic Body Trust coach and pleasure advocate. As a white, cis, middle class, queer, fat, survivor, Dawn’s work is a fiercely compassionate invitation for each of us to deepen our relationships with our bodies and our pleasure as an antidote to the trauma, disconnection, and isolation so many of us feel. Your pleasure matters. Your body is wise. Dawn’s work is all about creating spaces and places for you to explore what that means on your terms. To learn more, visit dawnserra.com or follow Dawn on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So, welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.
Hey you! I’m easing into my third week on Vancouver Island and continuing to slow down, rest and dream, read and nap and eat delicious food fresh from the garden.
As much as I miss my amazing bed and some of the comforts of home, I have to say, Alex and I are seriously considering looking for a place here in Victoria. We’ve been just having such a lovely time.
Dawn Serra: One of the things that I’ve been treating myself to in this slowing down is loads of books and reading. I started reading Nora Samaran’s new book from AK Press, “Turn This World Inside Out: The Emergence of Nurturance Culture.” It is giving me all kinds of ideas about ways we can be, ways we can approach each other differently.
It all stems from Nora’s hugely popular essay that came out a couple of years ago called “The Opposite of Rape Culture is Nurturance Culture” which many of you read. I’ve shared it multiple times on the Facebook page. It forms the base of the book and then she expands on it with interviews, essays and other contributions for this really dynamic conversation that really involves all of us and how we want to do justice, accountability, relationship and healing so many of our attachment wounds and trauma wounds. One of the things I really appreciate so far about the book is that it’s not about prescribing a way of being but Nora’s asking really powerful, important questions about what we might dream our way into if we centered nurturing, especially men.
Dawn Serra: I’m hoping, maybe, fingers crossed… I heard Nora doesn’t do many podcast interviews but I’m hoping to get Nora either on the show or as part of the summit. So, we will see. I also have about 20 books that are in pre-release waiting to be read from a variety of publishers, which means there’s a boat load of authors I’m hoping to fill our fall line-up with.
Before I share with you where we’re going with this week’s episode, I wanted to let you know that you can help me keep this show going via Patreon. Every single dollar makes a really huge difference for the show because it is entirely self-funded. You can support at any level, from a dollar up. But, if you support at $3 a month and above, you get exclusive weekly bonus content that isn’t released anywhere else. If you support at $5 a month and above, you can actually help me field listener questions then I share some of your answers on the show, which is super fun! This week’s bonus is my full interview with Adipositivity’s founder, Substantia Jones from the Bodies summit that I did two years ago. The only people who have had access to that talk paid for extended summit access. It’s a really fun chance to hear all about Substantia photographing fat, naked bodies all around the world for Adipositivity. Lots of people actually that you would recognize out in the world. So, that is really fun. You can go to patreon.com/sgrpodcast for Sex Gets Real – SGR Podcast – to support the show and also, to check out all of the awesome bonuses.
Dawn Serra: As for the episode you are about to hear, in the spirit of continuing to slow down and treat myself to a much needed rest, you get something super special. You get to hear my awesome chat with the one, the only, Meg-John Barker from the very first Explore More Summit, which means lots of my questions and perspectives have changed but I think it’s fun getting to hear the things that I was curious about then because I was so inspired by Meg-John, especially their book “Rewriting the Rules.” It’s one of my most favorite and most recommended books. They also co-authored a new book that came out last year called “Enjoy Sex” with Justin Hancock and they have lots of other books and zines about gender and relationships. Meg-John is just so compassionate and curious and their work around gender and love and relationships and sex is one of the most inclusive and non-prescriptive approaces that I’ve ever seen. I’ve learned a lot from Meg-John and I’m really excited to be able to share that with you this week where you get to hear this amazing interview that very few ears have gotten to hear. I’m also really excited about what’s coming up next.
Next week, you’ve been sending me all sorts of amazing questions, I’m going to be fielding those plus, some answers from Patreon supporters. Then, Sinclair Sexmith and their partner, rife, and I have our chat rescheduled for late next week which means that’ll be coming in two weeks. Finally! I’m super excited.
Dawn Serra: If, in the meantime, you want to send me a note or ask a question, all you have to do is email me, info@sexgetsreal.com or if you’d like to anonymously email me, you can go to sexgetsreal.com and use the contact form there.
Here is my chat with Meg-John Barker from Explore More Summit 2016 and I will be back next week.
Dawn Serra: Hey, everyone! Welcome to the Explore More Summit where we are inviting you to explore your more – in your relationships, in the bedroom and with yourself. I’m Dawn Serra, your host, and I could not be more excited and a little nervous about this incredible interview today with Dr. Meg-John Barker. Welcome, Meg-John!
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Hi!
Dawn Serra: I am really thrilled about this and you’ll see as we dig into these questions why I am such a fan. Let me tell you a little bit about Meg-John.
Dr. Meg-John Barker is a writer, a therapist and activist academics specializing in sex, gender and relationships – all my favorite things. Meg-John is a senior lecturer in Psychology at the Open University and a UKCP accredited psychotherapist. With over a decade of experience researching and publishing on these topics, you also have a book that is what led me to you, which is “Rewriting the Rules.”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yes.
Dawn Serra: I think that actually is going to be a really great jumping off point for us. My partner actually was the one that introduced me to your work because he could not stop raving about this book that was unlike any other book that he had ever read about relationships and sex and gender. That was your “Rewriting the Rules.” I know you call your books anti-self-help books. So, I’d love to just jump off there and dig into why you call it that, which I completely agree with and love. I’d love people to meet you that way.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Absolutely. Well, I can definitely say something about that. Yeah. I mean, it’s so great to hear that you enjoyed it because it was a decade in the making. That real dream project for a long time and amazing to finally have done it and have it out there. The anti-self-help, I guess I read a lot of self-help books about relationships myself and I was just like… I guess all self-help books particularly those around sex and relationships, it’s always focusing on the individual and what they ought to change about themselves and making them the problem. I was like, “Well, when I think about pretty much everything – but certainly sex and relationships – I think the big problem is the messages that we receive from the media, from wider culture, sometimes from politicians and our schools.” I wanted to make the focus of the book on those messages and on the rules that we receive about relationships and thinking, “Yeah. Why do we need to maybe question some of those rules and if we do question them, what are we going to put in that place?” So, I called it anti-self-help because in a way, it’s not about locating all of the blame, in a way, or the responsibility on the individual but thinking about how we engage with those messages.
Dawn Serra: I love that. I completely agree with you because I feel like so many of the points in my life when I felt really stuck, it’s because I’ve been just really feeling like I’m doing something wrong or I must be broken or I can’t fit myself into this mold and I’m in pain over that. I just really love this approach of let’s question the rules and figure out what works for you on your terms then, it might look totally different than everything else you’ve seen.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. Each chapter in the book takes people through helping them to think through what are these rules and then why might they be questioned? Why might there be a good benefits to questioning them? Then, what are people putting in their place if they’re questioning those rules? And, leaving with the question of, what if we didn’t have goals? Or, what if we didn’t have fixed rules? What if we embraced uncertainty? Or, at least have rules that we can revisit and they may be flexible and change over time.
Dawn Serra: Oh. I love that. Yeah. That flexibility, I think, is something that we forget over and over again, especially when we’re either in relationship or when we’re thinking about defining our own sexuality. It feels super rigid in so many ways. I like that you’re inviting this organic movement.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. I feel like we’ve got to assume in a way that any two people or more in a relationship, they’re going to have different preferences and different expectations and also those things are going to change over time. At the moment, actually I’m doing a lot of work around sex advice. I’ve been analyzing sex advice books and I’m writing my own sex advice book.
Dawn Serra: Oh, good!
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Oh. Yeah. That’s the next one coming. My colleague, Justin Hancock, who is Bish UK. He’s a sex adviser in the UK. He and I are writing this book. We just meet once a week and sit in a cafe and write together about sex. One of our big things in that is, yeah, any two or more people, they are going to have different preferences, different desires. There’s going to be some discrepancies there and also they’re going to change over time. What happens when we take those things as a starting point and instead of seeing them as a problem, just see them as a given and think about how do we work with that given that those things are going to be the case.
Dawn Serra: Oh. I love that so much. I mean, one of the things I’ve come to in my own career working around sex and relationships is I’ve started to find that the most profound thing that you can offer people is questions.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah.
Dawn Serra: Instead of telling someone what their experience should be, it’s inviting questions so that they can find the answer for themselves.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: That’s exactly what was my thinking with this book and is our thinking with the sex advice one. It’s like– Self-help books, again, they try and give us a one size fits all answer, especially sex manuals. Oh my God! These techniques work for everybody? No! There’s a massive continuum in terms of sexual desire from people who are asexual, to people who have high levels of sexual desire. Again, that can change over time in people’s lives. You can’t possibly give people a one size fits all. People have really different sexual interests and desires. Different kinds of people, different kinds of practices. Again, we’re writing a book, exactly like you say, with lots of questions and lots of helpful self-explorations people can do. It’s all about tuning into you instead of trying to fit this model that we’ve been given. Yeah. Absolutely.
Dawn Serra: Oh, my gosh. I want that now.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: I think only one year you’ve got to wait.
Dawn Serra: Oh, I think I can survive. I can make that wait happen. So, one of the things that I found when I was just looking into a lot of the work you’ve done and looking at some of your talks is on this topic a little bit of this one size fits all. You said that one of the most common pitfalls that you see for people who are in relationship – whether it’s monogamous or non-monogamous – is we have this inherent assumption that our definition for certain terms or our motivation for certain terms is the exact same as our partner and that can create a lot of tension or issues or even huge violations of agreements because we never had that conversation. I’d love to dig into that a little bit. Like the types of assumptions that you see and how that’s a problem and then how can we start working through that on our own?
Dr. Meg-John Barker: It’s so common. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that we just assume people work the same way as us and we kind of… I mean, one study that studied, I think it was quite young people in monogamous relationships found that they had radically different understandings of what monogamy meant but they were never having a conversation. It only came up when somebody, lets just say, violated the rules or at least that’s how it appeared to the other person. A particular common example was they said they’re monogamous but somebody assumed that monogamy meant, of course, they can carry on watching porn but the other person’s like, “No way.” Or, of course, I can stay friends with my ex for the person that’s a violation of monogamy.
Even something that we assume or maybe it’s quite common to assume everybody knows what monogamy means. Well, no and it’s becoming increasingly unclear with people having really different meanings about what monogamy means or fidelity means.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: As a relationship therapist, I see this all the time in the therapy room that people who thought they had the same conceptualization of monogamous or monogamish or open relationship or polyamorous relationship, and then actually they find out, they wanted to do whatever that structure was for completely different reasons or what it meant to them was really different. That is a real trigger point of it. It’s really scary for people because it’s like suddenly the person you thought you knew so well seems like a stranger. So, you’ve got that extra element on top of it of like, “Oh my God. I don’t know you.” or “You’re not this reflection of myself that I thought you were.” It’s a really powerful point in a relationship. I think if you can navigate that and that sense of difference then it can really bond you together. But, it is a really difficult point between any two people or three people or four people who are trying to have a relationship together.
Dawn Serra: Wow. That’s really powerful. I think like… Something else that I think is so important is we assume that once we work through something once, it’s done.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah.
Dawn Serra: You know like, “Oh. Okay. We figured out what this means to us. We never have to go back. Wooh.” We’re constantly in a state of change so you might have to revisit all of that again in a year or ten years or–
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. We’re changing over time. We have different input. I mean, something I’ve read recently that really flagged this up I think is Franklin Veaux’s memoir. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert wrote the “More Than Two” book about polyamory. But, Franklin Veaux recently done his memoir and you really get the sense of his change over time of realizing what’s possible in terms of non-monogamy. Then, of course, having to navigate that with partners. Definitely there was that sense very strongly in that book about him and his partner initially coming from very different places in terms of what they were looking for. So, for her, the rule about secondary is being very much secondary and the primary gets to make, call the shots effectively. That made total sense to her. It took Franklin a while to as why it really didn’t make sense to him. That’s not how he wanted to do things. But, you know, that’s a real ongoing process over time. So, yeah. We definitely change over time in terms of what we’re looking for.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think that just allowing ourselves and the people we’re in relationship with the space to change is really scary but also so important.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. We so much wanted to keep ourselves safe. Don’t we? We think one way to do that is to pin people down, say, “Stay the same.”
Dawn Serra: Yes.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Have a contract. Have a set of rules. Something that’s going to let you know people just don’t work like that. Sometimes I wonder that actually makes it more risky when we’re trying to pin– Because people are going to change. If we can find a space where we can be flexible for that change to happen, then actually the relationship stands a much better chance. But, it’s scary as hell.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Okay. Since we’re talking about scary and fear, I have a question around that because that’s something that I’ve been learning how to navigate in myself. It’s been a really interesting journey realizing I have a lot more fear inside of me than I thought and just unpacking that but also giving myself permission to be there, not try to rush out of it too quickly. I’d love to talk about that. I know that you taught a course on fear and sadness–
Dr. Meg-John Barker: That’s right. The Open University. Yup.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Exactly. I’d love to just talk through like, I think so much of what we do is motivated by fear – fear of change, fear of uncertainty, fear of losing something that we love. How can we identify when we’re in fear and then how can we navigate that with a little bit of grace?
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the thing that really helps me with my thinking on this is mindfulness and Buddhist practices. My absolute favorite at the moment is Pema Chödrön.
Dawn Serra: Ah!
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. The Buddhist teacher. She just has such brilliant stuff about how we work with difficult feelings, I suppose. I find her work really helpful. I think it’s about that thing of staying with, “Can we stay with the difficult feeling?” And, so I notice… I mean, the really difficult thing is you just want to act out of it. You either want to act out of it or you want to crush it. Repress it, not feel it. You find yourself either straight away lashing out at somebody or saying you’ve made me feel jealous, frightened, whatever – having that argument. Or, you’re like, “I’m just going to watch more TV” or “I’m just going to have another drink,” or whatever it is that numbs the feeling. And, it’s finding that capacity to just stay with the feeling and let yourself feel it and learn from it. I find it– It’s just… It’s astonishing. Like it’s magic when you can do that. It’s really hard to do that. But, I find myself– I’ve started taking, keeping a list of scary feelings that I–
Dawn Serra: I love that.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Difficult feelings that I have. One of them is blind panic in the face of technology failures.
Dawn Serra: That’s a good one.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. On niggling like I’m getting on with the job but I’m not really enjoying it but I’m making myself do it anyway. That’s an emotion. But, really big ones for me like I have one… I can get really stuck where my sense is that what the other person wants from me is not what’s good for me but I’m really wanting their approval. So, I really want to do the thing they want. But, I know if I do that, I’m kind of losing myself and that’s not a good idea. At the same time, if I hold onto what I’m wanting in the scenario then I’m worried about this disapproval.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: I get stuck in that. That’s a really hard one for me. It happens in really minor ways. It’s like I was with a partner on holiday and I want it to go a certain way back to where we were staying. He was all like, “I want to look at the map and I want to find another way.” I just got so stuck in that moment. So, what I did was I tried to really come back to that moment later on and think. Just really sit with that feeling because it was a really familiar one for me. It happened so many times before. And, actually to sit with it, I learn so much about my patterns that have been there for years and thinking about, “Yeah. This has played out so many times in my life.” It’s a terrifying moment for me when I have to choose… I feel like I have choose between myself and the other person.
What it got to is, now I understand it. I can communicate that. Not necessarily in this situation. In this situation, still probably, I’m just going to fall down a bit of a black hole when it happened. But, after that thing happened, “Okay. Can we talk about that?” Because they can get it. I can explain it and they can say, “Oh, yeah. I can see how you would get stuck.” Actually, there were definitely other ways of dealing with that situation. It doesn’t have to be you do what they want or you do what you want. You can find a way, a compromise or something. But, I was getting stuck in this either/or.
Dawn Serra: Yes.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: It’s like a lose-lose situation for me. Right?
Dawn Serra: Yes. Yeah. I feel like those feelings polarize you so much.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly.
Dawn Serra: I know when I get stuck in a place of fear, it’s like I get stuck in these: Well, it’s either this or this and I don’t see all these other solutions.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. It just becomes really… I think that’s it. That’s what– We can tell one way in that reactive place because that’s when things start to feel really black and white either/or and we feel trapped in that emotion.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think it’s like… I love that you give yourself permission to revisit that and then unpack after because I know I’ve had the tendency in the past of, “Ugh! that didn’t feel good. Let’s not think about that anymore.”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. You really don’t want to go back to it. I think it’s really hard to stay in this… You really notice it because it just becomes… The last thing you want to do is… You just want to keep busy or you just watch TV. But, it’s radical. I mean, I don’t really get that. I guess it hasn’t happened to me. That thing that used to happen to me a lot. It hasn’t happened a lot at all since I’ve done that. It can really liberate you from these patterns that you’re stuck in. I mean, it takes a while but like I say, now I’ve started to keep a list of them so that I can return to them. Also, you know, as Pema as well, you can also try and do it on the spot so if you get to the point where you notice them creeping up on you, you can just say, “Right. I’m going to take five minutes and just really sit with this right now.” as well as that thing of returning to it later. I think it’s incredibly valuable.
Dawn Serra: I like how you are saying that it’s like a process and learning and it takes some time. I think so often when we are in relationship with others and when we’re uncomfortable, we have this need to fix it and we’ve got to make it better and if I can’t make it better right now then I’m blowing it up.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. Yeah. I think that’s really common. Then, you just get into this pattern where you’re just having this really conflictual relationship. Again, to deal with this, people either end up in a lot of conflict all the time and constantly bashing into each other and bruising each other or they go the other way, which is just never express any of it.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Just pretend none of it’s happening and it’s… When I work with people in relationships, in relationship therapy, it’s like finding that capacity to sit with the vulnerability in themselves and sit with it in the other person. When they notice that tension starting to rise, being able to just take some time out, be with themselves, figure out what’s going on for them. It all involves treating yourself kindly because kindness is the key. If you’re not kind towards yourself, you’re not going to give yourself that. You’re just going to say, “Come on. Get on with it. Do better.”
Dawn Serra: Yes.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: It has to come from a place of kindness. And, you know, at its very best, I think it connects you to the other person because you’re like, “Wow. Yeah. If I’m feeling like this then they’re probably feeling like that.” Actually, we’re in this together here.
Dawn Serra: Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Being able to be just vulnerable enough to acknowledge where you’re stuck and build that bridge and then if they share, “Oh. Wow. I was kind of feeling this way too.”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. Yeah. Then, you’ve got the process of de-escalation instead of escalation into a conflict. I don’t think it’s like we need to avoid conflict at all costs. Sometimes you just are going to have a big row and then get to that place. But, you know, I think as well, if you can start doing this and building this in, sometimes you’re going to nip it in the bud. You’re going to see it coming and “Ah! I’m starting to feel this. Okay. I can say that to the other person.” and that gives them the space to be able to say, “Well, this is what’s going on for me actually.”
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I’m so happy that you mentioned kindness to self because that was one of the other questions that I had. That was actually the polarization that I’ve noticed in myself is when I’m having a tough feeling, it’s one of two things of, “Oh God! I don’t like this. Something’s wrong.” or “There’s something wrong with me. I should do this better. I’m doing poly wrong.” or whatever it is. And it really… I either other or I beat myself up and inviting that mindfulness and that space in thought created so much healing for me. I know one of the things that you really like to talk about is self-criticism and how when we beat ourselves up about our bodies or our relationships or whatever it is, it can cause suffering and it’s the source of so much mental distress like depression and anxiety. I’d love to just dig into self-criticism and how that causes suffering and then how we can navigate it.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. What it really struck me when I was writing about counseling and therapy and mental health issues, I thought, if anything… I mean, I never like to generalize too much, but if anything connects pretty much all of the mental health problems that we’re aware of, the common ones, it’s self criticism. When you’re depressed, you’re usually really down on yourself and really critical of yourself. When you’re anxious, it’s that fear of failure, of what’s it going to be like if I try and do this thing that’s driving it. Even with psychosis experiences, often the voices that people hear, for example, critical voices telling them they’re a bad person. Obviously, body image stuff, definitely about self-criticism and on and on and on. That’s a real theme.
Again, that’s why I think about the way why the culture comes in because reading like the philosopher Foucault, it’s all about we’re being taught constantly to police ourselves. He said it’s like this panopticon prison, which was a prison where the prison guard– There was one prison guard in the middle and he can see into any cell at any time. And, actually because the prisoners all know he could be watching them at any time, they start to police their own behavior. In the end you don’t even need the prison guard there. Foucault said our modern society is like that. Actually, we are constantly under observation in a sense, but also we’re being constantly bombarded with these messages that we need to scrutinize ourselves like, “Are we good enough? Are we measuring up? Are we successful enough? Do we look good enough?”
Dawn Serra: Yup.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: It’s like a real western culture phenomenon and it just makes people feel rotten about themselves all the time. Like constantly comparing themselves. I think social media can exacerbate it because you see what all of your different friends are doing and you’re like, “Well, why aren’t I going on a marathon like that person?” “Why haven’t I written a book like that person?” “Why don’t I feel as happy as that person?” “Why haven’t I got the friends that that person seems to have?” Forgetting that in effect, we’re comparing our insides with their outsides.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. That’s what they want you to see.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: And, also, we often compare ourselves to 20 different people. We can’t do all of those things. But, we really encourage to see the world that way. Makeover TV does it. Advertising is just trying to tell us your lacking something so you need to buy this product. We’re just immersed in it all the time. That’s my thinking. Maybe that’s why the rates of mental health problems are just so phenomenally high at the moment in western culture because we were being encouraged into this constant self-criticism.
So, what do we need to do? We need to counter that with kindness and cultivate kindness and compassion towards ourselves. That is definitely a lifelong journey because this is something we’ve learned from such a young age. Not to mention that most of us have experienced school bullying or abuse in our families or discrimination for whatever reason, marginalization. All of those things kind of add to it. We’re doing pretty well, really.
Dawn Serra: I know right.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. I think we can do it with a lot more kindness towards ourselves.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I really started bringing space into my thoughts after reading, I think, “Mindful Self-Compassion.”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah.
Dawn Serra: So, I went on a media diet and I removed a lot of those external messages. Then, I just started when I heard myself bullying myself, just breathing into that and not berating… Because the trap is, “Oh. I’m beating myself up. I’m horrible. I can’t do this.” Then, you berate yourself for catching yourself.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: A lot of the Buddhist thinkers who weren’t born in the west, when they came over to the west, they were just staggered by this because they’re trying to offer mindfulness to westerners and realizing “Wow. They just use to get another stick to beat themselves with.” They’re like, “Oh. I’m bad at self-compassion. Now. I’m going to beat myself up for being bad at self compassion. Now I’m going to beat myself up for beating myself up.” It’s just like we’re spiraling endlessly. How do you drop that and just be okay with yourself. And, like you said, it’s not about grabbing the inner critic and shaking it by the throat because in a way that critic is there for a reason. It’s trying to protect us. But, going about it in all the wrong ways. Again, it’s almost like the challenge is to engage with them with kindness. Like, “Hey, you! I know you’re trying to protect me but, you know, actually this is hurting us.”
Dawn Serra: I love that. Yeah. I think that’s really important, too, when we have… So, many of our viewers here at the summit are starting to look for new ways to explore relationships and their sexuality and things like that. Of course, you’re going to make a lot of mistakes when you try new things and you’re going to fail at certain things. I love what you just said of just when you hear yourself thinking those thoughts, just thanking yourself for trying to protect. It’s like, ”Wow. Thank you for trying to protect me. I know there’s something in there that feels scary or triggering but I don’t need you right now.”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. And, again, we get all this cultural messages about it’s not okay to make mistakes. You can’t get things wrong. We really need to shift that to a culture where the best things come from the mistakes. They are inevitable and we’ve got to stop shaming ourselves and other people for falling over. Because you’re going to keep falling over. And, that’s what every– You know, whether you try and adhere to monogamy and all of the other cultures or you try and do something different, you’re still going to mess up.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: We need to give ourselves and others a massive break from messing up. Cause, yeah, we’re still going to do it. Very true of me. The book that is behind you came out of all of those messing up along the way.
Dawn Serra: So, this is a book of all the ways I’ve messed up.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. Again, I think Franklin Veaux and Eve Rickert have a lot about that in “More Than Two” as well. This is how we’ve messed up along the way. Learn from us except you won’t learn from us because you are going to make a bunch of mistakes as well, you know.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I love that. I’m going to use that feeling of embracing failure and change to go into our next question which is at a recent non-monogamy conference that you presented at, you were talking about how our society still largely views monogamy as the right way to do relationships. But, there’s been a movement now that’s been around for a little while of non-monogamy and polyamory where some big communities started forming and people really started embracing swinger culture and things like that. But, even within those communities, there tended to be this rigidity of you’re poly and it’s more evolved and there’s certain ways to do it. Now, we’re seeing this movement away from a lot of those rigid rules and inviting some more fluidity and self-defining features into the way we do relationships. So, I’d love to just talk about this movement that you’re seeing towards really getting to define for yourself what relationships look like. I think along with that, that means inviting that space for failure.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Absolutely. I mean, just to dial it back, I think, this idea that I got that I found really useful with all of this which is in a few of my talks is the idea of this crab bucket.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: For me, it came from the author Terry Pratchett but I think he got it from somewhere else as well. The idea that in a bucket full of crabs, if any crab tries to escape the bucket, the other crabs will put it back in. Also, the sense that that crab is actually more comfortable in the bucket and it’s pretty scary to be outside the bucket.
I started to imagine, “Okay. So, what happens, in a way, if people are stuck in a monogamy crab bucket but people are starting to realize, ‘Well, maybe monogamy is not working for me.’ Some people cause it works for some people. Fine. If you escape the monogamy crab bucket, then you’re just a crab alone on the beach and it’s a very precarious place to be. Seagull might get you. You don’t know what’s going to happen.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Then, you spot another bucket full of crabs that look a bit more like you all over there. So, you scuttle along and you get in that bucket and it feels like home. The other crabs are pulling you back in and saying don’t leave the bucket. That’s what happens. You get this, you know, the “polycrab bucket” or the “swingers crab bucket” or various queer crab bucket. You know, outside of normativity.
It makes total sense because people outside of monogamy are realizing, “Well, I’m really marginalized here.” “People got all these kinds of stigmatizing stereotypes of me.” “I don’t have any legal rights.” It’s a scary place to be and then you find, say a polycommunity, “Yeah. Brilliant.” You don’t know what the rules are outside of monogamy. You’re looking for some script, some kind of way to live your life. It’s really scary. Then, you find people who have one and you’re “Okay.” Even if it didn’t feel quite right for you, it makes sense to start following that set of rules.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: But, you know, I agree with you. I think we’re in quite an exciting place now because it does feel like there’s a proliferation of different ways of doing relationships just like there is with much more diversity around sexuality, around gender at the moment. This lots and lots of different terms. People are realizing that you don’t have to do trans the same way everyone’s doing trans or bisexuality the same way or poly the same way. There are actually real diversity within each of those in terms of how we can do it and it’s about finding our own way through it. Right?
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. That excites me.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I was just going to say that that excites me too.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yes. So, in the talk, I was like, “Wow.” All these different words now like relationship anarchy, solo poly, polyfidelity. A whole load of– Monogamish, new monogamy, fuck buddies, hookup culture. There’s just such a big proliferation of ways of doing relationships that are out there. I think people do have a bit more of a sense of choice. At the same time, it’s worth remembering that there’ll still be that human temptation to grasp hold of one of those like, “Okay. This is how I do it.” “Okay, I’m going to try.”
Dawn Serra: “I’m in the bucket!”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. Exactly. Then, you’re in the bucket and you’re looking over the other buckets going, “Ha-ha!” The crabs over there not realizing you’re doing the same thing yourself.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: “Look at those norms over there. The muggles over there.” We’re so cool but actually we’re just reinventing a whole set of rules.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I feel like I’ve seen that a lot in kink communities where vanilla has now become an insult.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. Yeah.
Dawn Serra: It’s like if you’re kinky, you’re in your kinky bucket and you’re like, “Ah, anybody not in this bucket, they’re missing out.”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: I know. Then, you realize you’re excluding other people like the whole sex positivity movement. You know, really good thing away from sex negativity. Getting a diversity of sexualities, embracing kink, et cetera. But, what about asexual people? It’s like, you know…This is the useful conversations that are starting to happen of like, as soon as you start doing that and say this is the one true way of doing things, you’re going to exclude someone and you’re just reinventing this system of oppression. It can’t be a new hierarchy. It just can’t be a new … Like, this is the way and everybody else is wrong. It’s going to be diversity. There are many different ways of doing this and as long as they’re consensual, they’re equally okay.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I love that. I know one of the things that you really, specifically in your book that I’ve heard you talk about too is so many of these issues around labeling and hierarchies could be resolved if we’re willing to live in a state of uncertainty. If we’re willing to not have to create all these boxes and we can just be curious all of the time, we can invite so much more freedom ultimately for ourselves. So, I’d love to just dig in because uncertainty for some people is like kryptonite. I don’t ever want to be uncertain because it’s scary.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: It’s really scary. I think it’s scary probably for most people. Again, I get from existential therapy and also from Buddhist mindfulness this idea that what you’re going for is to be able to be with uncertain– Because life is uncertain and a lot of these things are attempts to make it feel like it’s not uncertain when actually it is. If we can try and be with the uncertainty and all of the feelings it evokes, then it’s a more realistic place to be and maybe we’re going to be less likely to jump into that polarizing… All of the tricks that we do to try and get out of uncertainty. Sort of noticing when we’re doing those, I think it’s really important.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think also if… One of the keys, I think, is to view uncertainty through a new lens instead of uncertainty being really threatening. It’s going to be uncomfortable, of course. We can certainly learn how to have a relationship with discomfort and we can also potentially see that uncertainty as an adventure.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Well, it is. And, I think it also opens up a lot more possibilities. If we’re trying to narrow it down to just like one path like this is the path that I’m on, this is where it’s going. If it doesn’t go there, then that’s a failure. That’s a really bad thing. That’s not a very open way of seeing things. It really does close us down and often traps us in our own set of rules. Whereas, if we can embrace uncertainty a bit more, then suddenly more options become available. It’s like, “Okay. How can I create if I engage with this situation I find myself in?” and instead of seeing it as like, “Well, either this can happen – which is good – or this can happen – which is terrible.” It’s much more like, “Wow. There’s a whole range of things that could happen.”
And, again, this idea of what is good and bad. You can be like, “Right. Okay. I’m madly in love with this person so what I really need to happen is for any other people who are involved to get out of the way so we can have this relationship. We can move in together. We can have our happily ever after.” Then, you get what you want and maybe, those feelings last a very short time. Then you’re like, “Oh my God. I’m stuck with this person.”
Dawn Serra: “What have I done?”
Dr. Meg-John Barker: It’s like, you don’t always… Even if get what you want, it might not be what you want…take it from the Rolling Stones. I think that’s right. It’s that kind of thing. Whereas, if you can sit with uncertainty, then it’s about… Well, you can’t predict the future. You don’t know where this is going to go but let’s be open to the various possibilities and not shut it down, I guess.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. It sounds to me too, living that way invites a lot more staying really present and really honoring where I am right now, here’s what I need, here’s what feels good. I feel like we’re so focused on our future all of the time that we’re never truly checking in and figuring out what we need or what we want. We’re just always looking ahead and I think that sets us up for a lot of distress.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Absolutely. I think that’s spot on. I think, again, it’s the idea of checking yourself how much you’re living today just to get somewhere rather than actually appreciating where you are. And, again, what you invest those things in, we can get so hooked on – “I’ve got to get this happily ever after with my romantic partner.” Then, maybe we’re entirely focused on romantic relationships and we’re really missing all those other great relationships and people and things in our lives that if we would just be present to them, we’d realize we’re pretty rich already with all of that. You know what I mean? We’re so always fixed on career goal. It’s like, “I have to get here so I’m just going to work, work, work.” And, again, you get those stories of people who are towards the end of their lives really regretting just how much time they spent pursuing that kind of whatever it was for them. That success and not actually being ever been present to the people around them, for example.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I’m so glad that you brought up romantic love.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yes.
Dawn Serra: Because that’s another question that I want to dig into. We as a culture, we tend to really idealize romantic love. Like our problems will be solved when we find our soulmate. We’ll be a whole person when we find our romantic love, if it’s real love, the sex should be easy. All of our world seems to be focused around finding this romantic love to the point that we devalue lots of other types of love. What have you found in that space?
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Well, I mean that was really interesting when I started reading about the history of it because it hasn’t always been that way. People are suggesting that a number of things all came together at once. That meant that we got this idea that some people even say love became the new religion. We started to look for everything. It was partly because we started moving around a lot more so we maybe lost a sense of community. We started looking from a partner, for what we used to look from our community, from our family. Maybe we’re much more atomized. We’re much more isolated individuals so there was that temptation. Then, maybe, with decline in religion as well. So, some of the things people used to get from religion – a sense of meaning and purpose and a sense of belonging and love.
Again, looking elsewhere for it. Work has become a lot more precarious. People are not necessarily in their job for life. Things that they might have got from their work before. Validation in a sense of themselves as successful person. There you get the sense that, “Okay. I’ve got to find ‘the one’ and complete me. They’re going to fill this void. They’re going to be my lover, my soulmate, co-parent to my kids. They got to be my best friend. They’re going to be the person I do everything with. They’re going to be my constant source of validation. You know.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. It’s starting to sound like a lot of pressure.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: A lot of pressure. Like, if you can do that, no one can do that. But, exactly, it’s so much what you see played out in “Sex and the City.” That was my touchstone when I was writing that book. Every week the characters’ looking for the one and finding someone who seemed perfect and then some tiny flaw, like a funny sexual kink that they had or they were too close to their family or not close enough to their family or they had problematic mates. There’s one episode when even there isn’t any imperfection and Carrie go so crazy trying to find… Going around her boyfriend’s apartment trying to find, “What is it? What’s the flaw? What’s the flaw?” Then, he comes back in and sees her doing this. That’s when he breaks up. It’s perfect, you know.
Dawn Serra: Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: I think, yes, it causes so much distress. I think both, you get that mode, which is like just disposable relationships because no one’s ever going to measure up or you get the other one where people stay in really unhappy relationships because they think, “Well, this person’s the one. I’m never going to find anybody else.” Either way, there’s a lot of unhappiness. I think, for me, a big answer is to start to just dial down the pressure on partners. The other relationships in our lives are really important too and we can get our needs met across a variety of different relationships and situations. They don’t all need to be met by one person. In fact, they can’t be. You are just– You can not sustain that. I don’t think, that relationship.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think so many people have really terrific friendships or really great families or their parts of really great communities but they discount the value of those relationships because we’re told they’re less valuable. People might be sitting on this treasure trove of support and not even realize it.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. I think it’s really easily done. We don’t have anniversaries to celebrate our friendships and other relationships. We don’t have a Valentine’s Day for friendships. In the “Parks and Rec,” she has Galentine’s Day to celebrate her female friendships. You know, it’s great. I feel like we really need to think about that – how we value these other relationships. I guess for me, since I’ve started doing it as well it really, really felt good.
For me, I have writing buddies. People like Justin Hancock and Alex Iantaffi, who I write with and those are such close relationships. That’s a different thing that you don’t get from anybody else when you’re sitting for hours on end writing with somebody and producing something beautiful together. It’s amazing.
Dawn Serra: I love that.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. You know, for me, that’s a really valuable relationship in my life that the more I’ve been able to recognize the value of that the– Yeah. And, again, it just takes the pressure off trying to get everything back from one person or in poly, for maybe three people. Even still, that’s a hell of a lot of pressure and also you’re not recognizing those other relationships in your life.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. My partner and I have this phrase when we’re geeking out about something and like, “Oh. We’re giving each other brain boners.” I like to think about that with my friendships, too. It’s those moments when you have people who you’re just so in the moment with them and you’re laughing or you’re going really deep and getting really vulnerable, whatever it is. Those moments are like… Those are the valuable things.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Oh. That’s the stuff of life for me.
Dawn Serra: Exactly. Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: And, then you start, you know… You can start to think, “Well, yeah, friendships, family… Then, you think, “Well, what about time with these people who I’ve had a fleeting connection with?” Well, we’ve just done that. Like today, I met somebody at the conference and we just have this amazing rapport back and forth for a little while. Does it have to last? Does it have to be long term in order to be valuable? Maybe those facing contacts that we have with human beings when that happens are equally valuable to the long terms. Then, you think, “Well, human beings? Does this have to be human beings?”
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: I have a very important person in my life who’s a cat.
Dawn Serra: Me too.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Right? It does things that no other relationship could do – that relationship. Then, you think, “Yeah.” Then, we can start to expand out our relationship with the community or with a project or with a place. Like when I moved back to London, I just got this amazing… It was like getting back together with an ex and realizing that you’ve got all of this amazing stuff that you never realized the first time around.
Dawn Serra: I love that.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. As you start to expand it out, you realize that thinking about everything as a relationship is a really valuable way to consider. Then, also, trying to value those different relationships. Not equally but just value what each one of them gives you, I suppose.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Because I know there’s a lot of talk right around self-care and I think sometimes self-care gets a little bit over simplified and generalized. “It’s a bubble bath and some chocolate and, maybe like a good Netflix and chill kind of thing. You know, why can’t self-care be, “I truly feel nurtured in my soul when I sit at this one park and read a book” or you know… I mean, those are things that actually make you feel more you and help you to shed the stuff that feels crappy. I love how you’re saying by valuing those things, we’re ultimately like meeting our own needs.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. Absolutely. Then, we have a lot more to offer to others as well. I mean, I think that the real block on self-care that people have is thinking it’s selfish. For me, self-care is about getting a kind relationship with yourself and a caring relationship with yourself so that you’re not always getting in the way. When I’m really self critical, I feel like I’m standing in my own way and actually my writing is not as good and my therapy is not as good. I’m not having as good interactions with people in my life because there’s this person standing in the way who’s just criticizing everything all the time. The more I am kind towards myself and develop that self-care, the more that gets out of the way and I can actually have those amazing connections and I’m giving a lot more to other people, to the world like the things I’m good at. I can do more. That’s really important.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. So, I have this question for you that we moved from the bottom because it was my first question for you when we’re doing the outline. It’s something that I love and I think it’s something that we don’t talk about enough. I think it’s a truth that we know but we don’t name it. That is, you talk a lot about plurality and how we have this sense in our world of everything is a binary. So, you’re either male or you’re female. You’re monogamous or you’re non-monogamous. And, we’ve touched a little bit on some of our answers about how we have different versions of ourself, different types of needs. I’d love to just hear from you. What does this look like and how can we embrace it more?
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah, I think you’re right. I mean, it’s really about getting beyond buying binary. It’s a really important thing. That’s the book that I’m hoping to write at some point. It’s like, we think about bisexuality as being beyond the binary of gay and straight and non-binary gender, which is something that rings true for me personally is being beyond the binary of male and female. Like you say, then there’s like monogamy/non-monogamy get beyond that binary. Then, just starting to think in non-binary ways so we stop getting caught up in these binaries is really important. I think something that got me into this whole area was the idea that when we’re self-critical, it’s because we assume that there is this self to be critical of. This static fix thing that I am… That I really hope is good but I’m really worried it might be bad.
When you realize that actually there is no fixed you, that you are actually much more plural than that, it can be a relief. It can take the weight off. A dear friend of mine who sadly died in the last year, Trevor Butt. He was a psychologist and he did this study and he got people to list the most important people in their lives. The people they really felt close to. He got them to think about who they were and those different relationships. They drew out this table and it was like, were they extrovert or introvert with these people? Were they more rational or more emotional with those people? Were they more active or more passive in those relationships?
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Basically, what he found was people would be like, “Well, I feel really close to my dad and when I’m with him, I’m more rational. I’m more the– I take a back seat. He’s more the driver. I’m more passive… But, when I’m actually with my best friend, I’m more emotional and I’m the one driving a bit more. So, I’m actually really quite a different person.” And, again, across five relationships, you see that picture. But, what was really telling was when you ask them, “Do you feel like you can be yourself?” They’d say, “Yeah, I’m totally being myself. I’m being myself with that person. I’m being myself with that person.” But, the self they’re being is a different self.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: This idea that we are another– I like to call it the community of selves. It’s almost like we’re all of the sailors on a ship and that the ship is going in the same direction.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: We are a community. There’s something that binds these selves together, but we have all these different roles and there all these different sides to us. If we can open up the dialogue between those different selves, that’s a really good idea. Rather than pretending that only some of them are there or this is the good side of me that I want to be all the time and these are the bad side of me that I never want to be. It’s embracing that plurality. Embracing all of those selves is really important.
Dawn Serra: I love that. I feel like if you can start to really embrace that theory and see even within your own life, like I’m so different with my best friend than I am with my mother, then you can not only be more forgiving of yourself but you can start to see that same fluidity and change in your partners and be more forgiving when they need different things than you thought they did.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. And, definitely– You know, I suppose, we can end up with a lot of jealousy about this kind of thing but when we recognize that people are different in different relationships, we can be okay with that. Yeah. Actually, my partner is never going to be that side of themselves with me. They are going to be that side themselves with other people and that’s okay. It’s actually, you know, often– Maybe that’s even something that I may not be interested in or I guess that’s where that kind of compersion or furble feeling can come from as well is seeing a partner or a friend with somebody else and they’re being really connected and being a different side of themselves and that’s wonderful. It’s not so dangerous when we recognize that we are different selves with different people and that’s something to celebrate rather than to find anxiety provoking.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Actually as you are talking about that, I felt this space open up in myself. Just like you’re so right. If you have a partner who’s super into sports and you’re not into sports, you want them to go somewhere else to be that person.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Please. Exactly. Have a friend who–
Dawn Serra: So, why can’t it be that way with intimacy and friendships. I mean, it’s not like a taking away, it’s just a different version.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. It comes back to that “the one.” When we’re thinking in “the one,” then we want them to be everything to us. It has to be everything to them. It’s really dangerous if you see sides of them that they’re getting elsewhere. Whereas, we can move away from that model and it doesn’t have to be non-monogamy. It can totally happen with them. People can decide, “Yeah. I want to be monogamous.” but they can still respect the fact there are a lot of different relationships in somebody’s life.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Again, not trying– Because we do it both ways. We try and force them to be everything to us and we try and make ourselves everything to them. I think in doing that, we can get really lost and that’s not great. Or, we can put hell of a lot of pressure on another person, on ourselves.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: So, yeah. I think it’s just… For me, it’s wonderful to embrace these different sides of ourselves. Then, you can be really curious and be like I’m quite a serious person a lot of the time then I notice just these some situations or some relationships where the comedian comes out. I’m like, “I’m making people laugh. That’s awesome! That’s not something I’m familiar with but it’s happening. It’s great.” We can be excited by the different selves that emerge and it keeps it really alive. It keeps relationships really alive because it can be wonderful to see a partner being other sides of themselves that we maybe don’t have when we’re sitting watching telly together as we do every single night. It just keep that spark going.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. That I think is such a huge thing because so many people that come to me come to me because desire and libido have just really died. So much of it is this stagnation, both of self and of seeing their partner’s like, “I know all their thoughts. I know how they’re going to react.” It’s really taking the autonomy away.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: That’s right.
Dawn Serra: And, I love this concept of like, “Let me be curious about who you are and this fact that you’re in a constant state of change.” That’s exciting.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Exactly. If we are in a constant state of change, then we can go out for a romantic meal with this person we’ve been together for 10 years and still discover something new because they’re still different today than they were last time. Actually, Justin and I are writing about… In a way, we started talking about first time having sex and what that’s like and things. Then, we were like, actually we embraced this idea of constant change every time’s a first time. Every bit of our body and mind is different every single time we have sex.
Dawn Serra: Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Wow. It’s exciting.
Dawn Serra: Oh my God! You want to talk about brain boner. Oh my God! I could go down that path so much. Cause you’re so right. I’m creating this course right now called “Everything You Know About Sex is Wrong.” The course is to bust every myth that exists around sex. And, one of those myths is you can get good at sex by having it enough and then you have become a master and you have no more learning to do. You know a technique and that’s all we need or whatever. So, I love this. Every single time you get in the bedroom, you’re in a different mindset. You’ve had different experiences that day. You have different contexts. You have different feelings. Your body may feel different than it did yesterday. It’s all new.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah and it’s got all the scariness of first time because you can’t assume anything. But, that also makes it really exciting. And, I agree. I think there’s so much problem with mainstream sex advice which is just learn this technique, learn this position. I’m like, “What? Really?” (Did that ever help anyone? That just don’t fit.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Even if it was great the first time.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. It’s how to relate to people sexually. How to actually really tune into what we want. Really communicate with our bodies and our language about what we’re looking for. Yeah, definitely. It’s a whole different– Then, being present. We talked about this before – not having this goal focused approach to sex. It’s not about getting an orgasm, it’s about connection, about being present to the moment. Then, suddenly it’s like, “Wow. That’s a whole new experience.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: It’s a good sensation like, “Oh wow. This interesting power dynamics come into play.” You suddenly open to all of that.
Dawn Serra: Oh, that’s so juicy. I love that so much. Oh my gosh! Yeah. There’s so many fun places you could go with that.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah, totally.
Dawn Serra: Okay. Well, we are at the end of our hour, which is amazing, even though I could keep talking to you for three more hours about all of those stuff. So, yeah. This has been amazing. Can you tell everybody where they can find you so that they can just follow your blog. You’ve got a blog and find your books and all that stuff.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Yeah. I have a blog under Rewriting The Rules. It’s rewriting-the-rules.com. If you Google for my name or for that, then that should come up. I’m often writing. I’m trying to do lots of free zines and stuff on there at the moment. I wrote this zine recently on social mindfulness, which covers a lot of what we were just talking about – self-criticism and the cultural messages. Check out that blog basically. It’s got loads of links to different talks I’ve done and all of that stuff on there as well.
Dawn Serra: And, a new book in the works.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Oh yeah. Actually, several. They require a lot of books coming out next year. Again, if you follow the blog, you’ll hear about them.
Dawn Serra: Awesome. Okay. I’m really excited about that. Yay! Well, thank you so much for being part of the summit and for being here because this was phenomenal. I really appreciate it.
Dr. Meg-John Barker: Thank you for having me.
Dawn Serra: Thank you to everybody who watched. I hope you had a great time. We’ll have links to Meg-John’s site and social media so that you can find them and stay tuned for more interviews. This is Dawn Serra with the Explore More Summit and we will see you next time. Bye.
A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses.
As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?